If you are like the average person you might not even be able to recognize Payola unless an expert like Paul Porter breaks it down for you. The first time I ever saw it was in a movie was in 1985 though it got by me. The movie, The Last Dragon, showcased martial artist, Taimak, and singer, Vanity, as his love interest. It was a comedy where the character Sho'nuff a.k.a. "The Shogun of Harlem" was hired by Eddie Arcadian a record producer who wanted to get his singers video into rotation so badly he would even kill to make it happen. Unfortunately for Mr. Arcadian his singer had no talent and therefore her video was rejected. Vanity starred as Laura Charles an ethical video show host, who decided what would air and it was solely based on talent not favors of any kind or intimidation. What probably makes this film even more significant is that Berry Gordy of Motown created it. Gordy is one of music’s most informed and respected industry personalities. As with most serious subject matter that hits the big screen it is often presented to audiences in the form of a comedy to blur its true importance or significance. In the film Vanity never gave in to the temptation to put a talent less, corny singer on the airwaves for a favor. It's 20 years later and it seems as if the less talented artist and corniest of songs now rule the airwaves thanks to Payola. In this second part of Playahata.com's discussion with Paul Porter, we'll show you how Steve Harvey stands up, Sway’s been bought, and others like Funkmaster Flex have lied. Still and all Porter's interest is not in taking them down them, he’s after corruption at the top - the Corporate CEOs. - Bruce Banter.

The Stories Nobody Told Us

Playahata.com: Okay so Spitzer's office is doing good things, but can regular people help force the FCC to do anything to improve radio. I know that Industryears challenges the FCC?

Paul Porter: Of course, but do you mean about Payola or just in general?

Playahata.com: I mean both; I am asking what can average citizens do to change the music we are bombarded with?

Porter: Well when it comes to the indecency of lyrics they hear on air from 6am –10pm they can file complaints with the FCC. Document it. Technically that can jeopardize a license. Unfortunately the FCC is sleeping on all these issues and is not proactive at all. The FCC setup is bureaucracy, Republican vs. Democrat. Two democrats and two republicans, Chairman Martin has the final say and he is a Republican. The lobbyist are working him, it’s a power game. It’s a lot of politics to unravel. However Spitzer is embarrassing them so much with all these payola scandals. Its going to be really hard for them to do nothing at all. It just takes so damn long. People should fill out forms and document their grievances don’t just sit back and complain.

Playahata.com: It appears to some that change is happening now, recently Clear channel fired 2 program directors for accepting Plasma TV. Isn’t that a deterrent?

Porter: Oooh, wow - that’s a joke! Yeah it’s a deterrent for Michael and Diane cause they got fired. But c’mon man that’s funny, they investigated 1200 stations and find 2 people out of everybody and the worse they find is 2 TV’s. Anybody can read the documents online and see how extensive it was at Clear Channel and the people involved. Look if they firing folks for TV’s, they are going to have a whole lot of folks fired in the near future. Clear Channel has set the standard. There could be some stuff we don’t know but firing just two staffers was an insult and the same stuff is happening at Z100 with the Warner investigation.

Porter: That’s like saying “a brother goes to jail for selling drugs that is going to stop the drug dealer on the next corner”. I don’t think so. If some corporate heads go to jail that will change things but the way they got this setup it’s always the little man who goes down. It’s like on Hot97, Barry Mayo firing Todd Lynn over the Tsunami parody. That was a half ass reaction, from a half man. John Dimick was the Program Director nothing happens to him. When Mark May or a General Manager goes down or a station loses a license. Then we are talking about change.

Playahata.com: The playola with corporations we “officially” hear about and there seems to be some recourse, it’s slow but with Payola its like people just talk. Funkmaster Flex was once reported to have taken 35k from KRS-1 as payola, but KRS1 never brings it up anymore or talks about it. Are people who have paid it scared to discuss it or embarrassed?

Porter: Man, that’s old news, that’s probably why he won’t discuss it. I can see it happening. I wish I could get 35 grand for playing a record; at least I would have played the joint.

Playahata.com: Can friendships with people bypass payola. I only ask, because the rapper Paris had a homeboy from back west coast named Sway. Sway was doing the morning show at HOT97 in addition to his MTV gig. Paris had a dope independent album (Sonic Jihad) he released approximately 2 years ago; I communicated to his “homeboy” Sway that I had an album copy for him, from Paris- he was like send it to me. He gave me the address to send and the whole 9 and was like send it. I was like ok, this is cool. I sent two copies one for him and one for Rich Nice, who was his co-host, he said he was going to play it but he never played it.

Porter: Well my experience with Sway, is that he is suffering from selective amnesia.

Playahata.com: Explain selective amnesia?

Porter: He selectively chooses what he wants to do, whom he wants to remember, and what he is going to do or whom he wants to forget. Selective amnesia is an industry epidemic, affecting the minds of numerous record, TV and radio heads. Maybe he just didn’t want to play it.

Playahata.com: Is it possible, he couldn’t play it because of Payola?

Porter: Well why not just say that I can’t play it. I worked at WRKS when Sway was at HOT. We had debates about issues, so he gives me a number to talk afterwards; saying gimme' a call at the crib, the number rings busy 24 hours a day. That’s not to hate on Sway, it’s a fact. Sway often dodges the issues. I got respect for him. I played Sway’s first video on BET I supported him back in the day. That’s how we started talking. This isn’t about hate but c’mon, if you can support Paris, do it.

Playahata.com: I think I understand the process but I am not sure cause then another time Sway played a song on the radio, which was obscene. I think it was from Dipset and it had a chorus of “don’t say a word, if you don’t flip no birds” and the translation for that is “don’t say nothing unless you selling crack or cocaine ya' know keep ya' mouth shut unless you selling drugs”. I can’t figure out why he would play this but ignore Paris. This song had no clearance from the station the artist just came up and he played it.  

Porter: Are you surprised, you sound surprised. Look if somebody wants to do something they can. This is selective amnesia. Sway selected to do the bird song, drug song. I got into a beef with him when he was at HOT97 cause its 7am and he has some strippers in the studio on the air talking about “all morning on how, we swallowing” I asked him would he wake people up to strippers if he was on Z100 or would he do that at MTV? He was like “NO” he wouldn’t do it there. So I said why do it here? I said so what you telling me is that it is ok to do that to Black and Latino people the so-called urban audiences right. Do that crap at MTV. I mean, people do what they want; once again it’s back to selective amnesia. He didn’t want to play Paris who had a dope album that just so happened to be positive and challenging. I mean how could you not support Paris? Paris is doing it the right way. Independently, I got respect for him. This isn’t about hate, this is just about facts.

Playahata.com: So in short you are telling us that the reason so little information goes across the airwaves is cause of an aggressive “paylist schedule” which demands certain artist albums get played and that is also the reason that we hear such shitty music on the radio is cause of this payola?

Porter: Definitely cause there are no programmers in radio, nobody is standing up. It’s corporate now so everybody is following orders and the folks at the top are just taking what the record companies give me. Just like yessum boss. 

Playahata.com: Steve Harvey was the highest paid host in America ( 7 million dollar a year according to Sista 2 Sista Magazine) and he stood up in Los Angeles on the line to say he is not going along with payola. He told his bosses he was playing music that was in harmony with his community. He said he was playing Erykha Badu, Jill Scott, India Arie and others, no matter what the Radio one bosses say.

Porter: See Steve has Money and balls! He can say what he wants to say. He can be selective, he is absolutely right, that’s why everybody is totally IPOD crazy. The only person who might be satisfied with radio is some 12 years old, who don’t know any better. We went from lyricist to lyrically challenged. Pac and Biggie are probably rolling over in their graves hearing Laffy Taffy, Ying Yang twins and all them.

Playahata.com: Any media reform organizations that specifically deal with trying to block or stop payola?

Porter: There are a lot that talk about it, no disrespect to them, I been involved with a lot of different organizations lately. Hearing the talk and I been meeting a lot of activist lately like my man Davey-d and folks doing stuff all around the country man but I don’t want to be saying I am doing this 10 years from now, fighting Clear Channel. There are reformist and revolutionaries. I want to be a revolutionary. I want to go take it. I think we have to use the political process, that’s what my co-founder and President Lisa Fager of www.Industryears.com does she is the political side. I want to say Lets shake this up and go after them both black and white doing wrong. Give the actual names and bring attention to their wrong doings. Don’t just blame it on the white man, people want to do that. They got the black man protecting. I had beef with. People just accepting, I do not blame them for it.

Playahata.com: Let’s go a step further, radio stations say that research goes into the songs they play.
 

Porter: STOP, they are liars. I worked at all of the top companies and in all of the top markets. Nobody is doing real research. There is no research that goes into what affects you or your child and what you really want to hear. They got some college interns in Indiana sending out 8 second hook tapes of the songs that they are already driving down people’s throats. They have these interns call and ask if you want to be part of a research music survey. C’mon you can’t be serious. Lets show the studies. I challenged Emmis Communications and HOT97.I gave Jeff Smulyan a proposal, they complained it cost too much. Then Rick Cummings went on Fox TV’s Hannity and Colmes right after I did saying that I tried to rip them off, they been ducking me and the issues since then. I haven’t spoken to them since.
 

Playahata.com: You clarified the myth of urban radio research but do they do any legitimate information gathering?

Porter: There is a thing in radio called TSL or time spent listening and there is no TSL in hip hop, people punch dials like crazy they don’t listen for long periods. In radio research if they asked people you want to hear 50 cent, 140 times in a week? You think people are going to say yes? I don’t think so but they will play it 140 times. There’s good music happening. There are a lot of good artist who we never hear, even if you take the artist you hear, some of them have good songs that you will never hear on the radio. I feel bad about it. That’s why local artist can’t even get any play in their local areas. You could be listening on a North Carolina hip hop station but that don’t mean you going to hear Lil' Brother who’s from there, before they got there deal. If a station was forming now that say played half of what these stations are laying and another half of something new, that station would shoot right up to the top of the charts. Cause there is no choice today. People are starving for something new. 
 

Playahata.com: Is it worse in hip-hop than other forms of music?

Porter: Nope, in fact multiply the numbers by 5 for the pop stations cause what the black oriented stations are making is nothing compared to the others. The effect is just different. It hurts us worse cause we are caught up being forced to listen to the more destructive music, this whole gangster obsession. It’s being controlled by forces outside the community. Jimmy Lovine is up in his Interscope office fueling lot of this. He calls people niggers, he’s sitting back saying these niggas are great; the things that this guy is documented as having said are incredible. I mean even producers like Kwame, hear the stuff that he says and are shocked at what comes from his mouth. Man I love money but there’s a point where people have to have some integrity and stand up say no. But it won’t happen cause there is always a cheaper brother.

Playahata.com: Does your organization feel that companies who advertise on stations involved with payola have any responsibility also? 

Porter: I don’t blame the advertisers. I only blame advertisers that sponsor events that are indecent or just raw. I have a problem with people putting money in and sponsoring events they would shelter their children from, say like at a summer jam. You know Pepsi dropped out of HOT97 summer jam this year for events that took place at summer jam the year before because they had a little kid with the bulletproof vest on stage and he is cursing and stuff, (50 Cent's son) that’s not atmosphere for kids although Giants Stadium was packed – but why spend your money there if you cant bring other clients or whoever to a show. I believe in corporate responsibility with advertisers but the companies just like listeners don’t know that payola is happening.

Playahata.com: Are hip-hop magazines trying to do anything about this payola?

Porter: Man the magazines are basically a photo journal of the same shit, well maybe not Vibe. It’s sad it’s like the Source got a grind. I was doing a story for The Source and spent weeks being jerked over by The Source Magazine, they pimped me for all this info, because they said they wanted me to do a story on Payola. Then the editor Dashun Allah tells me they want me to go after Interscope. They just wasted my time because they simply had a personal vendetta. I probably wasn’t going to get paid anyway, that’s fine but don’t waste my time. The Source is like FOX news or Sinclair broadcasting, they all have their personal agendas. That slogan fair and balanced doesn’t happen in the magazine world.

Playahata.com: I like to think of Payola in terms of money or gifts but recently I read an autobiographical book called Confessions of a Video Vixen and the girl was talking about doing sexual favors on behalf of the record label does this count as payola?

Porter: Yeah, I read that I wouldn’t doubt anything she said about her sex acts for a record label for a second. You heard of the Vista Hotel in D.C., it’s the same one where Mayor Marion Barry got busted at with the drugs, well the record company threw a Toga Party there one night, all you could wear was your Toga. That was 20 years ago. What happened there you can only imagine, I could tell you later but just let me say labels are the best at conferences. They give you cards; you go to rooms and get lap dances or blowjobs. You see Payola is anything that will cost you but you get for free. Sexual favors leave no paper trail but its another payoff or payola. 
 

Playahata.com: Paul you seem to say payola has been around for really long.
 

Porter:I am not worried about people like Flex or these others little guys taking some Payola. I am not worried about the little guy making 30,000 or even 300,000. It’s nothing. I am looking at these corporations and record labels. The corporate Payola is really what is destroying radio; because of it we have the top three men at Viacom making 52 million each. That’s what I am talking about. I would like to see this payola crackdown effect BET. Bob Johnson just had a going away party, 2 weeks ago. So Reggie Hudlin is taking over, I hope that Reggie Hudlin cleans house. I read a press release on your site saying he was hiring 3 notable people but what power will they have to affect what is happening now? I think that as long as Stephen Hill is in charge of programming, sitting back chewing bubble gum all day acting like he is at MTV things will remain the same. BET used to have elements before, programs like Teen Summit etc. I know BET history; I worked their and its gotten worse as they have gotten larger. We have to get back to variety. 

Playahata.com: What changed it all for you?

Porter: I got tired of the lies, hearing the same thing .I was just like this s aunt even worth it. I had to challenge somebody. When I challenged them at HOT97, it was a start. I started speaking up. They did a good job they kept me out of work. It hurt. I made my livelihood off of this. They play shit everyday and then you see these kids out hear and you want to smack them but it aint they fault. It’s our fault. People need to sign up for the Industry ears newsletter just like they do Playahata newsletter. Lisa and I we get back to them. 

Playahata.com: In closing is there anything about Payola that you want to say that people do not know?

Porter:  Simply put money is the controlling force of the music industry. Your favorite artist might not be your favorite artist if it wasn’t for money. It’s a Jim Jones brainwashing that is going on in radio and it effects more than just your favorite artist and it effects how people view you around the world. It affects your children. A lot of us are missing out on real hip hop. The lyricist have been replaced with the lyrically challenged. It has to stop so we can get back to what it used to be. If folks knew about Payola they would be mad as I am. All those folks out there with selective amnesia I hope they get a cure. 

Return to Part I of the Paul Porter Interview